Thabks for sharing your thoughts, and may God bless you and your future wife
cheers
Claire

Yes, I’ve read Lamentations (I’ve read the whole Bible, actually), but not for some time. I’m working my way through The Source NT at the moment (slowly – I have three young children ), but after that I think I’ll take your advice and re-read Laments. It’s poetry, though, so I won’t be using it as the basis for theology. The writers of the laments would be astounded if I did. That’s not what they wrote them for. Besides, God didn’t break their bones, their captors did. Natural consequences of stepping outside of God’s protection again – not God placing *extra* affliction on them.

As I pointed out earlier, the discipline being described in Heb 12 is suffering for doing right – ie persecution – not punishment for wrongdoing. The only way to avoid this conclusion is to start your quote from verse 5 instead of earlier in the passage, like v1 or v4 or ch11. It also helps if you use the KJV, because ‘chasten’ sounds more punitive to modern ears (but actually that is not its only meaning) and of course ‘scourge’. Also those of us who have experienced common Western parenting in which discipline = punishment, when we read ‘our fathers disciplined us as they thought best…’ we immediately think punishment, because that’s what we received. So check out this great post on what the Greek word being used here actually meant to the people who were readig it when it was written – people who had experienced or watched paedeia.

I grew up being spanked and was very grateful for this that my parent because they cared kept me always from the things that would harm me.
I presumed I would discipline my children the same until my very soon bride to be challenged me on this. I now recognize that spanking is not nessisary but in some situations it might be.
We have discussed this and have come to he conclusion that each child is unique and special in their own way. Some children may only need a stern voice or time out while in other times when the child realizes that this deters them from going to bed an immediate discipline is nessisary. I have seen this in my niece. And the after affects are not what you might expect. But my niece was within 20 seconds of the spanking happy and listening. She knew she was wrong (in this circumstance) and koodos to my brother who had the heart to care for her.
My point again is there is no cut and dry answer to disciplining children. Each child is different and according to circumstances you need to discipline accordingly.
You need to get to know your children to know what they need.

When I was challenged to prove that this practice actually takes place, I spent a good deal of time looking for evidence of such on the internet. While I found many references to such a practice none of these appeared to be from sheepherders. (or appeared to be credible)

So, I send a letter to Sheep Magizine. ( http://www.sheepmagazine.com/ )

This is their reply:

Hello John,

You asked in an August 2, 2006 message to Sheep Magazine if it was true whether shepherds sometimes break a lamb’s leg to prevent it from wandering off.

It is not true that any shepherds break a lamb’s leg on purpose.

What they sometimes do in certain sheep-raising nations is to “brake” a leg. This means they attach a clog or weight to the animal’s leg, which keeps certain “rogue” sheep from getting too far from the shepherd until they learn their names, and not to be afraid of the shepherd.

Rogue sheep are those that won’t stay with the flock–important to their safety. A single sheep that constantly moves out and away from the others is the certain target of predators, and often is at risk of wandering out of sight (over a hill, into the brush, etc.) in terrain where the shepherd is unable to count the sheep properly. Then the sheep would be surely lost.

Each shepherd looks after from about 1200 to 3000 sheep. When they’re constantly moving, such large numbers are impossible to count with precision.

To keep track of such large numbers of sheep, they must be corralled, and then “passed under the rod,” which means the shepherd has them in a narrow chute that enables each sheep to be counted one by one, and even marked with paint, charcoal, etc., for further work if necessary.

The leg brake is a temporary measure; a lamb with a braked leg (it’s not a “broken” leg!) is still easy pickings for predators at night, because it can’t run as fast as the flock when under attack, and shepherd usually can’t see predators in the dark.

Yours,
Nathan Griffith, editor
Sheep! Magazine

I have to yield to the authority on such things.

So the truth is this:

Good Shepherds do not “break” the leg of a rogue sheep.

They do however “brake” the leg of a rogue sheep in order to keep it from wandering off.

John O.

The experience of the believer with the LORD is in direct relationship to the walk that the believer has with the LORD.

Heb 12:5-11 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.